Wacoal + Acceleration Partners

ROB: [00:00:00] Hey, Parrish. How you doing?

PARRISH: I'm good. How are you, Rob?

ROB: I'm very well, thank you.

Um, so it turns out you recorded today's episode in Boston, and one of the very, very few facts I know about that particular city is it was the birthplace of the telephone.

So 150 years ago this year - so all the way back in 1876 - Alexander Graham Bell, he used this new device that he created to call his assistant, uh, Thomas Watson.

And do you know what the very first words or phrase that he said down the line was?

PARRISH: I don't.

ROB: No? Do you want to know?

PARRISH: Uh, sure.

ROB: The enthusiasm is palpable. He said, uh, "Come here, Mr. Watson. I want to see you." Amazing to think 150 years later, I'm speaking to you on a Teams call and I can actually see you. So you don't even need to come here for me to see you.

PARRISH: Oh, that's good. I was gonna say, the only real fun facts I know about Boston relate to the Boston Tea Party, which I'm sure you may not want, uh, to talk about.

ROB: I, I love tea. Well, that's as far as I'll go with it.

Welcome to the brand-new [00:01:00] series of Awin-Win Marketing Podcast. Series four kicks off today, and we've got some fantastic episodes lined up over the next few months and some fantastic new guest co-hosts joining me too.

So a very warm welcome to you, Parrish. How are you?

PARRISH: I'm doing well, thanks. How are you, Rob?

ROB: I'm good, thank you. Thanks for coming along. Um, now seeing as this is your podcast debut - can you give the listeners a bit more context about your role over here at Awin?

PARRISH: Yeah, absolutely. So I am the global agency director here at Awin, so I work really closely with our agencies, making sure that they get everything they need from Awin, um, and ensuring that we are providing a best in class service and support for those agencies.

ROB: And you've actually got one of those agencies joining you for the interview today, right?

PARRISH: We do - Acceleration Partners, who's a leading affiliate marketing agency that operates across the globe, and then one of their key clients, Wacoal.

JUDITH: Um, Wacoal is a lingerie brand. I've been with Wacoal for almost 12 years.

PARRISH: That's Judith Sampson, Marketing Lead at Wacoal.

JUDITH: We [00:02:00] specialize in bras and making women feel great in their bras. Our company has been around for 40 years in the US. Uh, we're Japanese founded, so 75-year legacy, founded in Japan, and really rooted in engineering bras for women's bodies and their lifestyles.

We don't believe in one size fits all. One bra can't really do what it needs to do for everyone. You really need something that's gonna work for your unique shape, and we have 67 styles in our line for that reason. And we really are all about servicing women.

PARRISH: I love that. And now obviously you work with Acceleration Partners to help manage your affiliate program.

So Sam, can you go ahead and introduce, um, Acceleration Partners, and really what your role and relationship is with not only Judith, but also the brand as Wacoal.

SAM: So Acceleration Partners is a global marketing agency.

JUDITH: Also with us is Sam Cormier, Program Director at Acceleration Partners. [00:03:00]

SAM: At a high level, we are helping our brands like Wacoal to grow their business through building and managing different, uh, relationships with affiliates, influencers, creators, and other strategic partnership types with the goal of driving that awareness, that, that traffic, and ultimately conversions and sales.

At AP, we like to consider ourselves an extension of our clients, so we're helping them to develop their overall program strategy. You know, working closely to identify the right type of partners for their program. Like Judith said, bras are not a one size fits all, and neither is an affiliate program and, and the partners that you work with.

Um, you know, we're negotiating optimizations on their behalf and, and overall just making sure that, you know, we're really aligned and, um, marching to the same beat.

PARRISH: Now Judith, knowing that your remit and role extends well beyond affiliate marketing, how does affiliate fit into the marketing mix, um, and really into the other [00:04:00] channels that you're responsible for?

JUDITH: Yeah. Um, so a little bit about my role. I really touch all aspects of marketing, really truly integrated, from media to retail marketing, to affiliate, PR, collaborations. And really just making sure that Wacoal is top of mind when [our customer] is considering her intimates, and even also when she's not thinking about her intimates, getting her to think about that purchase decision.

When you think about the marketing funnel, for a long time it was this, like, cone and you had awareness at the top, and consideration in the middle, and conversion at the bottom, and it's really changed. It's kind of more like a little bit of a maze, because she's discovering brands and considering - like, those touch points are happening in multiple different places.

PARRISH: Totally.

JUDITH: So I see, we see affiliate as a critical piece of the puzzle to help reach her at all phases of consideration, at all touch points. Um, and it really just helps to really [00:05:00] reinforce our brand awareness - like the way we see ourselves as a brand and what we're offering her - and affiliate is a tool to help get that message out. And it can happen in multiple different ways.

PARRISH: I mean, even thinking about that, you know, you take a step back and you mention that, you know, Wacoal's been in the US for 40 years, and global before that, right?

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

PARRISH: So, you know, how do you really transition into a digital marketing, you know, atmosphere in affiliate, knowing that you have a wholesale presence, you have a retail presence. How does that play into the larger mix of Wacoal?

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. I think for us, it's really our ... We're rooted in wholesale. We're rooted in service. That's something that's a very in real life experience.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: And so for us, a big part of our growth has been taking that message of in real life and translating it into a digital environment.

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: And affiliate has been really great to help us achieve that, whether it's through education, whether it's through, um, optimization of our website. [00:06:00] We see affiliate as a piece that really helps to take us from a very traditional model into a true omni-channel model.

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: And I feel like Judith has done a really good job at, like, educating us on your different retailer partners, and, you know, why we have to follow specific, like, compliance policies to make sure we're not stepping on those relationships that-

JUDITH: Mm.

SAM: - uh, you know, are so close to the chest for Wacoal.

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: I think for a lot of legacy brands like us - and, you know, it's very different than a direct to consumer brand that's rooted in digital. I think there's this mindset of affiliate is coupons or-

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: ... rebates or a discount model. For us, as Wacoal, we're a true full price business.

PARRISH: Yep.

JUDITH: And we're really proud of that, and we set a high standard for our quality, our fit, and also our pricing policies. And so the big learning for us, I think, is that affiliate is broader than discounting or coupon. It's actually a lot more complex than that. And really what's [00:07:00] been great about our partnership is finding the happy medium between the brand values and standards and how we can optimize in the affiliate space.

Like, there's definitely opportunity for us, even though we're not heavily discounted, um, and we're in premium channels, and we're a premium product.

PARRISH: Was there any reservations that Wacoal had internally about really dipping into affiliate marketing, and how have you overcome that in partnership with AP?

JUDITH: When we were at the point where we wanted to engage an affiliate partner, we were very excited about AP because they were able to get us past the hurdle of it's just coupons, it's just discounts, and really get us to see beyond that.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: And how affiliate, um, really helps to reinforce brand messaging and drive conversion without compromising the brand principles.

SAM: A big part of our role as your agency partner is to help expand that traditional perception of what affiliate marketing [00:08:00] is-

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: ...and, you know, what is possible for Wacoal. Wacoal is, we are a, you know, more content-led, upper funnel focused affiliate program. And I think we've been able to showcase some, like, really unique, uh, partnerships and different tactics that have hopefully maybe changed the narrative from, you know, some of the leadership and stakeholders', um, side of the, the business.

PARRISH: Well, and as you started, you know, working together, you know, what did that look like and how did you really talk about those opportunities with Wacoal to change some of the mindsets of some of the leadership for, you know, in supporting Judith and her goals as well?

SAM: Yeah. Judith, I, I know we, we're kind of reflecting on this a few weeks ago.

We were talking about, you know, the podcast and just reminiscing on all of the years that Wacoal's been working with AP. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when we started working together, um, before I joined the team, you wanted to take that crawl, walk, run approach.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: Right? To understand, is this going to be a viable channel for Wacoal, and [00:09:00] how can we showcase to leadership that, you know, this is something that makes sense. This is different, and we're gonna change maybe your current perspective.

And so, we kicked off services with Wacoal Outlet. And then from there, we were able to, you know, showcase the success, showcase the potential, the opportunity, and expanded to Wacoal America. And then from there, even further, incorporated b.tempt'd into the affiliate program, so-

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: ... kind of looking back at the past, you know, almost six years, the program has gone through so many different stages and phases of evolution. And it's been, I think we've been able to, you know, with the help of Judith, who's been such a champion for affiliate and for AP, um, educate, I think, some of the leaders and get them excited about the possibilities-

JUDITH: Yeah.

SAM: ...within this program and this channel.

JUDITH: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, having that crawl, walk, run mentality, we were able to capture small wins along the way and really educate the team about what success in affiliate [00:10:00] looks like, to see it as a critical part of media overall. It's one piece of our media strategy, but an important one.

And also to get the buy-in for investment, for future investment.

So Wacoal is our main primary brand. Um, we do have a sister brand. Her name is b.tempt'd, b.tempt'd by Wacoal. And, um, she is, uh, definitely more fashion-forward, more, like, lower plunge lines. You know, this customer's more likely to consider her intimates as part of her wardrobe. You might, you know, have, like, a little lace peeking. She's definitely of a younger mindset, but it has the same fit and quality of Wacoal. It's also a slightly lower price point.

And so, um, we have these two brands that are similar and different, um, but how do we play in the same space with affiliate? And so the approach that we took with Wacoal is that, you know, she's the big sister, non-promotional, premium. I mean, the price points for [00:11:00] a Wacoal bra are anywhere between $74 and $84, whereas b.tempt'd is more, like, 40-ish range. And so, like, for example, like, b.tempt'd is on Rakuten. Wacoal is not.

PARRISH: Right.

JUDITH: When we look at offers, um, and this is something that we launched recently that's really successful, is, like, card link offers.

PARRISH: Yep.

JUDITH: And that's more of, like, a premium experience that sits within Wacoal, whereas b.tempt'd can be more promotional, can be more, you know, I don't wanna say-

SAM: Yeah!

JUDITH: ... discounted, but, you know.

SAM: I think we're, we're reaching a totally different audience.

JUDITH: Yeah.

SAM: And, and you, you touched on it. Like, it is a, a younger demographic, and, you know, maybe they don't have as much of a disposable income as that Wacoal shopper.

So we've been able to think in a similar vein, but also test different things with b.tempt'd. And-

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: ... I know we've been able to make some cases as to "This partnership, which we haven't explored for Wacoal, works really well with b.tempt'd. Maybe there's an opportunity that we could explore this for, for the brand as well in, [00:12:00] in a different way."

But, um, it's been a really good program to, like I said, test and learn. Try different things, reach a different audience, and then take some of those learnings and apply them to Wacoal.

PARRISH: And so as you're engaging with, you know, key publishers or influencers, how has your perception, and then as you're going back to your key stakeholders, how has their perception changed of affiliate over the years?

JUDITH: My perception of affiliate has changed in the sense that affiliate is changing.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: So, you know, if you looked at affiliate five years ago, even when we started, there were just, like, a few opportunities. Now, there... I mean, everything is connected to affiliate.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: And it's constantly changing. It's constantly evolving. It's, it's connected to PR.

PARRISH: Yep.

JUDITH: It's connected to GEO. It's connected to SEO. So my perception of affiliate is that it's broad.

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: Um, there's so many ways that you can approach it. Strategy is really important [00:13:00] because there's so many different things you can do. And really having a partner who understands your goals, understands your business-

PARRISH: Sure.

JUDITH: And can help to nav- get you to focus in the right way for a win.

SAM: Absolutely.

JUDITH: Mm.

SAM: And I think that the way that we look at our partnerships and when we're recruiting, we're very intentional.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: We have a, a very healthy, uh, mature program right now. So we're not looking to just add any old partner and increase the size.

And, uh, if we are onboarding a new partner, we're looking to, you know, recruit someone that is going to drive incremental value, not just shift existing demand.

PARRISH: Sure.

SAM: Right? So, you know, v- we're very intentional. And I think we've also been able to get really innovative over the past couple years, specifically with, you know, bringing new partner types to the table.

I, I know right now we're in talks about podcast and, and CTV. You know, partnerships where traditionally, you know, those have been managed by other teams, and now affiliate's [00:14:00] being brought into the conversation because they can operate on that pay-for-performance model, and it makes it really efficient.

So why would you not test with affiliate and, and, and do the same thing but with a higher ROAS and, and stronger efficiency?

PARRISH: And Sam, how do you go about educating, you know, not only just Wacoal and making sure that your team is bringing really strong recommendations, but then also going back to your internal stakeholders at AP and making sure that you're educating them about the needs of the brand correctly as well?

SAM: Well, I, I think, you know, at AP we are always looking forward. We always want to find ways that we can expand our client's business. We've tested with influencer and AP in the past, and, you know, maybe we didn't have the right fit, and that's okay at that time. And we're not gonna push something on a brand that doesn't make sense, right?

So if, if leadership is saying like, "Well, let's do this again. Let's do paid amp," or, "Let's test Amazon," you know, I think our team is very well-equipped right now to say, "This is the right time to bring this to Judith."

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: And, and also, [00:15:00] "This isn't the right time."

And then even going off of that with helping Judith to educate internal stakeholders, right now it's about expanding that traditional perception.

And I think one partnership that we've been able to be successful at, at, at doing that with is Capital One, right?

JUDITH: Yes.

SAM: They are a bank media partner. They are grounded in data, they have so much data at their fingertips, so much opportunity we can tap into that's the right fit for Wacoal. But, you know, when we pitched it, there was some concern, some hesitancies.

You know, "That's a bottom of funnel, cash back loyalty partner. They're already converting people that were going to purchase anyways." And I think, you know, our team was challenged with, "Well we know that's not always the case. That is the case sometimes, but we know that the, that this partner can drive incremental value. So how can we showcase to Judith and to her leadership team that this partner makes sense? This is how we're gonna structure a test so that you feel confident in the path forward."

PARRISH: And did that test really [00:16:00] change the conversation-

JUDITH: Oh, yeah.

PARRISH: ... internally?

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

PARRISH: And what's the results of... You know, obviously I know working with Capital One, they drive some really phenomenal value, but what does that look like for you?

JUDITH: Yeah. I mean, the program has delivered very positive results, so we're very happy about that. It also has opened the conversation. You know, once you have that win, then the door opens-

SAM: Yep.

JUDITH: ... To like, what's the opportunity? What more can we do? How can we take that model and replicate it in other places? So it was a really good win.

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: Yeah. And now we're expanding to more.

SAM: Right. Exactly. We're opening up the conver-

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: It opened up the conversation for the Amex card linked offer flight that we're, um, you know, currently in the midst of, and it's performing really well. So I don't know if we would've gotten here - it took some time to get off the ground, but I don't know if we would've gotten here without maybe like the Capital One results and-

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: ...and that being successful to make the case as to why we should test with Amex.

PARRISH: So Judith, as you're discussing with your leadership and other stakeholders in the business, how does affiliate really marry [00:17:00] into and build on the performance of the other channels for the business, and how does it really drive additional growth and success?

JUDITH: Everything starts with our overarching strategies for the company and the business, and then we think about how do each of the buckets that fit within marketing, whether it's social, influencer, media - and affiliate is part of media, right? So there, that's under that. How you take all of your tactics and utilize them to achieve our overarching strategy.

All tactics have their own strategy, but then there's also overlap. So for example, with our PR agency, they're the lifeline to publishers from, like, an editorial perspective. Um, but also affiliate is connected to publishers. So we connect those teams very often on strategy. They have their own goals, but then they also connect on figuring out how we can, [00:18:00] how they can work together to achieve those goals.

We, um, had a collaboration. We were approached by Rent the Runway-

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: ... On some collaboration opportunities, and we saw that there was an opportunity to connect affiliate through that. So we had this piece that was rooted in collaboration that we were able to pull in affiliate, but then also pull in PR for the in real life piece of things.

So every tactic, there's usually a tentacle with that tactic-

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: ... where it's not just one team that is driving it. They, they might drive it, but they're also being supported by other pieces of it.

So that's kind of how we approach affiliate. They're part of the overall team- even though they don't sit in our office.

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: Yes.

SAM: They're an extension of your team.

JUDITH: Yeah.

SAM: For sure.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

PARRISH: Yeah.

SAM: Yeah, and I think the, the Rent the Runway example was, was perfect, and it, it definitely showcased how affiliate could be brought into conversations that were already happening. And in that situation, [00:19:00] affiliate became the measurement tool, right?

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: You know, we supported with pulling specific affiliate links for different types of exposure. We were monitoring the performance, analyzing it, and sharing those results with Judith and the Rent the Runway team so that they could make changes and pivots and adjustments. So we were all working together.

'Cause like you said, at the end of the day, we're all trying to grow the Wacoal business-

PARRISH: Yeah.

SAM: ... even though we're different channels.

PARRISH: So Judith, you mentioned that there are sometimes simple initiatives that you try with Wacoal that maintain the brand's image, um, such as free shipping, but they really outperform a deeper discount that you might see-

JUDITH: Yes.

PARRISH: ...on one of the other programs. So really, what has that taught you, and how are, do you partner with AP to achieve those goals?

JUDITH: Yeah, so while we are not a discount brand, or we don't promote discounts, I mean, simple tactics like a free shipping or a free gift with purchase.

SAM: Mm.

JUDITH: Um, or a 10% off for new email subscribers-

PARRISH: Yep.

JUDITH: That moves the needle for us.

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: And it has taught us, again, [00:20:00] like you don't have to be everywhere. What seems like not a big offer to you or not a big deal to you is a big deal to your customer.

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: There is a lot of noise out there.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: And sometimes it's just a matter of being top of mind.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: It's not always about I have to have an offer, I have to have a discount. It's sometimes it's just being- In the conversation.

PARRISH: Yep.

JUDITH: And with affiliate, you can be part of the conversation.

SAM: In so many different ways.

JUDITH: In so many different ways.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: Yep. Mm-hmm.

PARRISH: Well, and Judith, you've mentioned a few times now too of you don't have to be everywhere, you just have to be in the right place.

So Sam, how do you at AP really take that, and how do you put forward the right partners to make sure that they're right for Wacoal?

SAM: Yeah. No, it's a great question. And, and I mentioned earlier that we already have a mature program.

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: So we're not looking to do mass recruitment.

PARRISH: Yeah.

SAM: We're not looking to put, you know, a partner [00:21:00] promotion out there with Wacoal and just hope that it converts, right? We're looking for the right fit.

And sometimes that goes beyond the lens of performance, right? Sometimes we're looking for a partner that's gonna drive awareness, and that's going to be able to authentically tell the story of why someone should choose Wacoal. You know, hopefully they've gone through the virtual fitting, the in-store fitting. They're able to speak to their audience. And, you know, sometimes the audience is, it's for the fitness category, and it's the sports bra, right?

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: It's getting really specific with who they're speaking to and what they're talking about. And we really try to arm our affiliates with that content to make it more seamless for them to speak to their audiences.

But, you know, we're, we're very, we're very intentional with who we, um, recruit into the program. We don't ever want to put the brand, the program at risk. Um, you know, we've worked so hard to build it to where it is today, so that, that's really important to us.

PARRISH: Is there a campaign or a partnership that really you f- either one of you feel like [00:22:00] has demonstrated that partnership that you have between the two of you? I know you've mentioned Capital One or Rent the Runway.

JUDITH: I mean, yeah, Rent the Runway was a really good one. Capital One as well. I think Amex has also been a really-

SAM: I was gonna say Amex as well.

JUDITH: ... big win for us as well. I mean, obviously, it's a premium product.

SAM: Right.

JUDITH: So it aligns really perfectly with Wacoal. And we've seen really great results almost immediately.

SAM: Right.

JUDITH: So that's been really successful.

SAM: Agreed. Yeah.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: I think that's definitely been a partnership that's kinda maybe changed conversations-

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: ...Internally at Wacoal, and I'm hopeful that it will continue to catapult into other, you know, card-linked offer strategies. And once again, these partners have so much data at their fingertips. We would be doing a disservice to Wacoal if we didn't tap into that data. Because it doesn't lie, it's objective, right? And we've been able to really showcase incrementality within this partnership and, and drive strong results. So I'm excited to see what, what the future has in store from a, [00:23:00] a card-linked offer perspective for Wacoal.

PARRISH: Well, and you mention incrementality, which is something that is very near and dear to my heart. I feel like I talk about it all the time and how important it is for a brand and making sure you're aligned on that definition.

SAM: Mm-hmm.

PARRISH: Um, but also knowing that Wacoal recently migrated to Shopify, um, and is really investing more heavily on the brand awareness.

So what opportunities does that create for the partnership between Wacoal and AP, and how has that even already started to drive further incrementality?

JUDITH: Yes. So we recently successfully launched on Shopify. That was an ordeal. But we did it.

SAM: It was an undertaking.

JUDITH: We made it.

SAM: But y- you guys.

JUDITH: Yes.

SAM: It was seamless.

JUDITH: Yes.

SAM: You did a great job.

JUDITH: And, and seamless is the word that I would describe, like, the whole experience. It just creates a seamless experience for the customer.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: It gives us... It unlocks greater opportunity to optimize across all channels, but especially affiliate. And we've seen the gains immediately, and we're already [00:24:00] exploring what other opportunities that that unlocks from an affiliate perspective.

SAM: Totally. And I think it- creates that opportunity, not only from, like, an infrastructure perspective-

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: ... but also from a growth perspective. So having that real time, like, product cataloging sync is enabling our content partners, our shopping partners, to be able to pull pricing and inventory, and it allows them to optimize more efficiently.

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: Um, and then it's also opened up integrations with, you know, YouTube Shopping, TikTok Shop.

PARRISH: Yeah.

SAM: Uh, we've been able to have more strategic conversations with partners like List and Checkmate because we have the Shopify integration live. So it, it's definitely just been a value add, I think, for the program.

And, um, going back to incrementality, I, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Judith, but, you know, we look at new customer, uh, percentage as a way to measure the incrementality of the channel. And the migration from ShareASale to Awin was actually, uh, a big one for us because we were [00:25:00] able to implement new customer tracking and commission differently on new versus return.

And I think that has been a huge win as well, um, in saving money on, you know, paying less on that return customer and incentivizing our partners to wanna drive new audience.

PARRISH: How do you really see that building, um, in some of those broader, uh, ambitions that you have for Wacoal? So what does affiliate mean in building those broader ambitions?

JUDITH: We see growth. Uh, growth is the goal. so we definitely are looking to, um, surprise and delight our customer, acquire new customers on our own channel. And having that visibility of new versus returning customers, we're able to measure the effectiveness of our tactics across the board. Um, and we definitely see loyalty being a great unlock for affiliate as well.

SAM: Yeah, definitely. I think even looking back five years ago, starting off with Outlet, you know, expanding to Wacoal America, then b.tempt'd. I know Wacoal [00:26:00] recently acquired another brand called Glamorize, and I think i- if we could make a case to, you know, support that program and expand to that program under the Wacoal umbrella, um, it would just showcase the channel's ability to continue the momentum that we've already kind of started to, to drive with this brand.

PARRISH: And so looking ahead, you know, you mentioned that Wacoal likes to plan two, three years in advance. So knowing that you've just done this massive migration to Shopify without a hitch, there have been so many advancements in what you're doing as a brand, what's the next opportunity for Wacoal?

JUDITH: As with everyone, we're looking at AI.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: And really thinking about, like, how does that transform the business and how that, how does that transform the customer journey, what part affiliate plays in that. I know AP has already kind of come to us with, you know, ideas and, and, and just things that are happening in the space just to get us thinking about what's next and what's new and now.

Also [00:27:00] GEO.

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: Um, and that's really just transformed search in the way she's discovering brands. So I think those two pieces are really what's big and next.

SAM: I totally agree. You know, A- AI is the buzzword, not just in the affiliate industry, but i- in the world. And I think looking ahead, establishing that zero click presence is going to be critical.

Uh, Wacoal is a high consideration purchase, and we need to make sure that Wacoal is showing up in those comparison queries, or else we're gonna be left behind.

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: Um, so definitely, I, I agree that, uh, AI is, you know, at the forefront of our mind and of our strategies, and, uh, we're leaning in much more closely than we have been in the past.

And I know Awin recently integrated with Peak AI, and that's definitely something that we wanna learn more about. 'Cause I don't think that there's a solution on how to accurately measure the impact of AI because of the, the click to purchase path is, is no [00:28:00] longer applicable.

PARRISH: Well, it's no longer applicable, too, but there is... so Awin also recently launched the AI visibility report. So because of some of the tracking that's available, and especially now that you're on Shopify, you can actually see every touch point that any of the LLMs have had with the brand. So you can see, was it a live query? Was it agentic? Was it, um, training?

So you can really see every touch point, and then really how your publishers are populating. So you can even see where to further invest and make sure that you're guiding in the right areas, too. So really understanding-

SAM: Mm-hmm.

PARRISH: ... that product, um, and the platform makes a big impact on that as well.

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: That's great.

PARRISH: I guess, finally, what's next for Wacoal and AP?

JUDITH: Wacoal is very heavy in brand awareness now. We launched a massive brand awareness campaign-

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: ... a few months ago, and it's across all touch points from connected TV to social to publisher content. I was just at a photo shoot yesterday where we [00:29:00] did some native content with a publisher, which was phenomenal.

Um, so we are very aggressive about brand awareness. We're very aggressive about acquiring new customers. Um, and so, um, we see AP being along with us for that journey. We also are really expanding our knowledge and our education around fit.

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: Um, so that is something that we are prioritizing as well and thinking about how does that show up digitally.

SAM: You know, we've worked together so closely to develop the strong foundation and the, the healthy affiliate program that we have today, and, you know, we wanna continue with that. And AP wants to be that strategic partner for Wacoal. We want to challenge the status quo, continue to bring new and innovative ideas to, to the channel, and like I mentioned earlier, would love to continue to, uh, expand this program and, and connect to Wacoal's broader business objectives and [00:30:00] overall digital growth strategy.

PARRISH: So for both Sam and Judith, what is one thing that would unlock more investment into the affiliate channel from brands specifically?

JUDITH: I know this is gonna sound cliché, but more data.

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: More insights.

PARRISH: More data.

SAM: I was thinking the same thing, Judith.

JUDITH: More data, more insights.

PARRISH: Yeah.

JUDITH: The more visibility, the more we're able - you know, a lot of the times when you show results, um, it leads to more questions than answers.

PARRISH: Mm.

JUDITH: So the more we can answer those questions and show more results and give more data and more information, um, I think that that'll help with investment.

SAM: I agree, and I think that's the beauty of working with an agency. You know, we have so much data from working with other brands in all different verticals that we're able to leverage to make the right recommendations.

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: And similar with Awin, I know you have a really robust, like, competitor benchmarking dashboard that, you know, we've been leveraging to understand, you know, where are the gaps and, and where do we need to lean [00:31:00] in further to make a case for more investment.

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: Uh, but all of that comes from data results, and that's objective at the end of the day.

PARRISH: Uh, we've talked a lot about AI and the impact that it's having, and not just as a buzzword for the affiliate industry. But really how does AP take an approach towards AI, and how do you continue to invest in the relationships, but leverage, um, a lot of the AI and change the conversation?

SAM: Yeah. It, it's a great question. I think as an agency, we're constantly having to showcase our value-

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: ... Right, to our clients, to our partners. Um, and AI has helped in that aspect, and I think it's also disrupted in, in that same-

PARRISH: Sure.

SAM: ... vein. With AI, we are an AI-forward company at AP. We leverage Claude a lot to make our work more efficient so that we can focus on more strategic initiatives and, uh, strategic analysis.

[00:32:00] So it's played, from an agency perspective, it's played a huge role in giving us the information we need to make decisions faster.

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: But then also, you know, there's just so much unknown in the space, and, uh, we're trying to stay with, uh, the change and not get left behind and bring our clients along that journey.

And we always say this at AP, like, "Never fly the plane while you're still building it." And I feel like unfortunately, like, that's where we're at because of AI, there's just, there's no solution. There's so much in development.

PARRISH: Yeah.

SAM: There's things that are coming out every day. I think at AP we started off with, like, ChatGPT, then we were on Copilot, now we're using Claude. Like, it just, it changes so quickly.

So we've had to be very agile and flexible-

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: ...making sure we're protecting our clients' data. That has been a, a huge priority for us as an agency that's leveraging AI. Um, but also showing our clients, like, there is that human aspect of this channel that can't be replaced with technology.

PARRISH: [00:33:00] So how does that change your place, and what role do you see agencies playing in the future?

SAM: I mean, I think agencies are gonna have to be more creative in how they are telling the story of where affiliate is playing a role in that consumer purchase. Maybe it's a lead gen, I think, you know, it's not gonna be as simple as click to purchase.

PARRISH: Sure.

SAM: Not that it's always been simple and easy, but it, it's, it's gonna be challenging. And we're being challenged right now to think in a very different way than we have before, and we're having to, to learn as we go, while educating our clients at the same time.

PARRISH: So Judith, what does those conversations look like from your end?

You know, what are some of the challenges that you push back to AP, and how do they, you know, rise to meet the challenge?

JUDITH: Again, a lot of questions.

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Um, a lot of curiosity about what the opportunities are. You know, what do we not know? What are we not sure of? Being really [00:34:00] transparent. Like, as you were talking about AI, like, the, you know, the thing with AI is that it's... it, it needs a person, right?

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: So we were talking about, like, digital versus in real life, and, you know, these tools are only as good as the people behind them that are, like, really driving the direction and really, like, narrowing it down to what the real need is.

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Um, so it's a lot of those conversations about, like, okay, what do we run with?

What are we, what are we not sure? What do we have more questions about?

PARRISH: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: What, what do we need to feel good about moving in this direction? Um, what's still unknown to kind of get us into one space? And sometimes it unlocks something completely new and different.

SAM: Yeah.

JUDITH: So just being open, having the convers- and the trust, again.

SAM: Absolutely.

JUDITH: Cause we're in it together.

SAM: Yeah. And I think at AP, something that we're very mindful of is AI slop, and I think that's where that-

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

SAM: ... human aspect of, you know, working with AI, not letting [00:35:00] AI do all the work for you-

PARRISH: Mm.

SAM: ... is critical. There is so much AI slop out there-

PARRISH: Yep.

SAM: ... because people are not checking deliverables or, or checking answers before they're sharing it with someone else, and that is a big no-no at AP.

PARRISH: Thanks to Judith and Sam for coming along to join me in the studio in Boston for our conversation and sharing more about their partnership.

ROB: And thanks to you as well, Parrish, for hosting that interview. How did you, how did you actually find it?

PARRISH: Yeah, I found it good. I really liked diving in deeper with our clients and really understanding more about their partnership.

ROB: Well, I thought you did a great job. Uh, if listeners agree, hopefully they do, please do give us a rating and a review wherever you're listening.

PARRISH: And if you'd like to see more of the interview, just head over to Awin's YouTube channel to check out the highlights from the conversation too.

ROB: That's right. Uh, we'll be back in two weeks' time with another great episode, this time featuring an interview with the agency Silverbean and the Australian brand, Kleva.

PARRISH: Until next time, thanks for listening to Awin-Win Marketing Podcast, where we show you how partner marketing always offers a win-win.

ROB: Bye.